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iwarburton
Joined: 08 Dec 2006 Posts: 2133 Location: Northumberland
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Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 7:54 pm Post subject: Well done GMS |
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Full marks to today's Good Morning Sunday for its thoughtful look forward to Holocaust Day next Saturday and for its wonderful gesture in reuniting old wartime friends, actress Muriel Pavlow and Trudi--whose surname I didn't catch. Well done, all concerned.
Ian. |
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mark occomore
Joined: 07 Dec 2006 Posts: 9955 Location: UK
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Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 8:04 pm Post subject: |
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Ian,
I'm not really religious, but it's nice people are able to celebrate things like this. Will you be lighting a candle? |
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gfloyd
Joined: 07 Dec 2006 Posts: 4861 Location: Here, There, Everywhere.
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Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 8:11 pm Post subject: |
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mark occomore wrote: | Ian,
I'm not really religious, but it's nice people are able to celebrate things like this. Will you be lighting a candle? |
Errrr.......Remember not celebrate. _________________ His name was ernie ........ and he drove the fastest milk cart in the west..... |
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Cherskiy
Joined: 08 Dec 2006 Posts: 3701 Location: near Amble, Northumberland
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Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 9:15 pm Post subject: |
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gfloyd wrote: | mark occomore wrote: | Ian,
I'm not really religious, but it's nice people are able to celebrate things like this. Will you be lighting a candle? |
Errrr.......Remember not celebrate. |
And when you remember, also remember the hundreds of thousands of non-Jews that were killed in the camps - Romany Gypsys, political prisoners, Resistance operatives, Russian POWs and even some Allied POWs. They seem to be forgotten about when the Holocaust is mentioned. _________________ Author: “To the Ends of the Earth: A Snapshot of Aviation in North-Eastern Siberia, Summer 1992”
(Free to read via Kindle Unlimited) |
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John W
Joined: 07 Dec 2006 Posts: 3367 Location: Warwickshire, UK
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Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 9:16 pm Post subject: |
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How about 'commemorate' |
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Barkingbiker
Joined: 11 Dec 2006 Posts: 2313 Location: Lincolnshire
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Posted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 9:52 pm Post subject: |
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I will just remember my visits to Belsen & Austwich, these places need to be visited so we can understand the horror perpetrated on humans by other humans. Why can we commorate, yet be unable to stop the repetition of these inhuman acts against humanity?
BB _________________ Old Bikers Never Die, our leathers just get tighter! |
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Cherskiy
Joined: 08 Dec 2006 Posts: 3701 Location: near Amble, Northumberland
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Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 8:41 am Post subject: |
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Barkingbiker wrote: | I will just remember my visits to Belsen & Austwich, these places need to be visited so we can understand the horror perpetrated on humans by other humans. Why can we commorate, yet be unable to stop the repetition of these inhuman acts against humanity?
BB |
Those who forget their history are condemned to repeat it.... _________________ Author: “To the Ends of the Earth: A Snapshot of Aviation in North-Eastern Siberia, Summer 1992”
(Free to read via Kindle Unlimited) |
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gfloyd
Joined: 07 Dec 2006 Posts: 4861 Location: Here, There, Everywhere.
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Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 9:08 am Post subject: |
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Cherskiy wrote: |
And when you remember, also remember the hundreds of thousands of non-Jews that were killed in the camps - Romany Gypsys, political prisoners, Resistance operatives, Russian POWs and even some Allied POWs. They seem to be forgotten about when the Holocaust is mentioned. |
The difference being that the Holocaust was an attempt to wipe out an entire race through a carefully planned process (see the Wansee conference archive as evidence of that ) where as the other groups were not targeted in the same methodical manner. Although that does not alter the fact that thousands, millions probably of other non-Jews were murdered. _________________ His name was ernie ........ and he drove the fastest milk cart in the west..... |
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Cherskiy
Joined: 08 Dec 2006 Posts: 3701 Location: near Amble, Northumberland
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Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 10:05 am Post subject: |
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gfloyd wrote: |
The difference being that the Holocaust was an attempt to wipe out an entire race through a carefully planned process (see the Wansee conference archive as evidence of that ) where as the other groups were not targeted in the same methodical manner. Although that does not alter the fact that thousands, millions probably of other non-Jews were murdered. |
I totally agree that the Jews were systematically herded together and then culled, for want of a better phrase, as a result of the Wannsee conference, the 'pinnacle' of what up until that time had been a mish-mash of policy and belief towards the persecution of Jews in Germany and the Occupied Countries. What happened in the camps (and there were six specially built to implement the "Endloesung" (Final Solution) in addition to those already in place at Auschwitz and Chelmno that would be extended - Belzec, Jungerhof, Majdanek, Maly Trostinets, Sobibor and Treblinka) should *never* be forgotten.
My point (and I'm sorry if it got lost in translation) was that other minorities and populations suffered horribly and yet seem to be forgotten about - in terms of absolute numbers, their stories need to be heard too - if you look at it in terms of numbers, they probably add up to more than the estimated 6 million Jews murdered under the "Endloesung", and yet they don't have an official day or much of anything to remember them.
Mind you, 'official' sanction of persecution did stretch to the civilian populations at large, especially in the rear areas of Army Group Centre, Army Group E in Yugoslavia and in the General Government (Poland). Such repression was conducted in the name of 'anti-partisan sweeps', where officialdom turned a blind eye to the excesses of the various 'security' detachments. You only have to look at the combat record of, say SS-Sonderkommando Dirlewanger or the Kaminski Brigade to see that - the numbers of 'non-combatants' killed against the low numbers of partisans speak for themselves. Oskar Dirlewanger had free rein to recruit from concentration camp guards, plus thieves, murderers and rapists from military prisons so it's not particularly surprising. Kaminski's fellow travellers in the so-called 29.SS-Waffen-Grenadier-Division (originally the "Russian National Liberation Army") had a reputation for excesses even before their 'performance' during the Warsaw Uprising.
There was also an official policy of euthanasia for the mentally ill and retarded, at least 100,000 Germans and Poles being killed in the camps, plus the treatment of Russian POWs could also be said to be extremely close to persecution - some 4 million being killed between 1941 and 1945, most being left to die without food or medical attention in vast camps whilst some were transported to Auschwitz (Birkenau), Madjanek and Sobibor for extermination.
One death camp existed in Croatia prior to the Wannsee conference and was set up for the exclusive extermination of ethnic Serbs (although Jews, political prisoners and Gypsies were later sent there). This was Logor Jasenovac, which was created by the Ustasha government for the purpose of eradicating ethnic Serbs. The Nazis apparently had to slow down the camp authorities' enthusiasm for killing Serbs in 1941 although their attitude changed following Wannsee. Logor Jasenovac even had its own (unique) sub-camp for children and babies, the kids being taken into the woods and killed, one by one, with a mallet to the head.
As for the Gypsies, there was official persecution and attempts to eradicate them. Some 225,000 were killed (with some commentators believing up to 600,000), and they were declared 'non-Aryan' by the same law that declared Jews as such in 1935. Official 'resettlement' and 'concentration' started in 1939, with 'ghettoes' being created in 1941 and the transportation of all Gypsies to as Auschwitz (Birkenau) commencing in 1942 under official orders by Reichsfuhrer Himmler, although the ex-chicken farmer didn't issue the extermination order of Gypsies until 1944. _________________ Author: “To the Ends of the Earth: A Snapshot of Aviation in North-Eastern Siberia, Summer 1992”
(Free to read via Kindle Unlimited) |
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gfloyd
Joined: 07 Dec 2006 Posts: 4861 Location: Here, There, Everywhere.
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Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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Cherskiy wrote: | My point (and I'm sorry if it got lost in translation) was that other minorities and populations suffered horribly and yet seem to be forgotten about - in terms of absolute numbers, their stories need to be heard too - if you look at it in terms of numbers, they probably add up to more than the estimated 6 million Jews murdered under the "Endloesung", and yet they don't have an official day or much of anything to remember them. |
This is true in the city of Berlin as well where there was controversy over the large monument to the Holocaust which was unveiled a year or two ago and focussed only on Jewish deaths. However there is a tendency (perhaps natural) for people to say "what about x, y or z" whenever somebody gets special attention or special commeration.
Obviously all the victims should be remembered, but I have no problem with there being a special day for the Jewish victims given the persecution they endured. _________________ His name was ernie ........ and he drove the fastest milk cart in the west..... |
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Cherskiy
Joined: 08 Dec 2006 Posts: 3701 Location: near Amble, Northumberland
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Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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gfloyd wrote: | Cherskiy wrote: | My point (and I'm sorry if it got lost in translation) was that other minorities and populations suffered horribly and yet seem to be forgotten about - in terms of absolute numbers, their stories need to be heard too - if you look at it in terms of numbers, they probably add up to more than the estimated 6 million Jews murdered under the "Endloesung", and yet they don't have an official day or much of anything to remember them. |
This is true in the city of Berlin as well where there was controversy over the large monument to the Holocaust which was unveiled a year or two ago and focussed only on Jewish deaths. However there is a tendency (perhaps natural) for people to say "what about x, y or z" whenever somebody gets special attention or special commeration.
Obviously all the victims should be remembered, but I have no problem with there being a special day for the Jewish victims given the persecution they endured. |
Neither do I - they deserve one. _________________ Author: “To the Ends of the Earth: A Snapshot of Aviation in North-Eastern Siberia, Summer 1992”
(Free to read via Kindle Unlimited) |
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